Expanding the Bench hosted a Culturally Responsive and Indigenous Evaluation® (CRIE) event, Being a Good Relative in Your Organization: Learning and Yakama Storywork presented by Dr. Michelle Jacob, Dr. Greggory Sutterlict, and Carol Craig, members of the Yakama Nation on July 30. Just over a month later, ETB Communications Assistant, Cachet Evans and ETB Co-Director Angel Villalobos sat down with Dr. Jacob to have an informal conversation to reflect on the CRIE workshop and provide insight into the thoughtful work that went into developing the event.

Cachet Evans:
Could you share how you selected the Yakama story for the CRIE event? What was the process that guided you to this particular story?
 
Dr. Michelle Jacob:
In Yakama traditions, we really honor the knowledge in relationships that surround our stories. How I have been taught is that when working with a storyteller, I invite them to consider the community, the time of year and whatever is going on within our own community and in boarder society. The storyteller then chooses the story that they think is the greatest gift to bring forward at that time. Some storytellers will say the stories select themselves. In Yakama teachings, we have a different perspective of animate versus inanimate. I think in Western traditions, a story would be a thing that’s not alive but for us, stories are very much alive. This is part of the process of respecting relationships and honoring the storyteller invited to work with us. They choose the story, and it’s always just the right story too. This has been my experience. Within the story there are important teachings about relationships and trust, process, and understanding our work within a much bigger context in history. That’s often contrary to how we’re pushed in Western institutions, where it’s about the agenda, who’s hierarchically in charge; this imposes a narrowness that can so often cause us to miss out on the richness possible from additional perspectives.
 
Cachet Evans:
At the beginning of the workshop, you emphasized that in a storytelling circle, bringing your full self is key, as listeners and storytellers learn together. Do you have any thoughts or recommendations on how this approach could be integrated into evaluation work?
 
Dr. Michelle Jacob:
I think that was one of the most important things to come out of our gathering. People noticed that when they’re invited into a space, we want them to bring their whole selves — not just some little leftover, worn-out part, but their full selves. Trusting that whatever else might be pulling at their time or attention can wait, it’ll be okay. That within itself is such a beautiful teaching for how we can move forward as evaluators. When our time and attention are fractured, I think that’s when we lose our patience, we have weaker relationships, and the work itself is not as meaningful. We’re more likely to take on work that doesn’t nurture us, and we get sucked into this kind of productivity “go, go, go” approach more easily.
 
Cachet Evans:
During the workshop, you provided guiding questions for reflection. Would you be open to sharing who your favorite character in the story is and why?
 
Dr. Michelle Jacob:
You know, it changes depending on my perspective of what’s going on and the teachings that emerge most strongly for me, but right now, I’m thinking about Yellowbell or Síkni and her beautiful example that it’s okay to make mistakes, it’s okay to “let people down.” As professionals, we are taught it’s one of the worst things to be late, for example. If we’re late, we are not a good team member, or it means we are incapable of fulfilling a certain role or responsibility. Those are tough situations but, in the story, we see Yellowbell did make mistakes and guess what? She’s still a very important revered character who continues to teach and bring blessings and grace to so many learners who engage with the story. So, that’s the part of the story that I’m thinking about and enjoying a lot today.
 
Cachet Evans:
Are there any additional thoughts or reflections you would like to share with the ETB community?
 
Dr. Michelle Jacob:
I think something important that we don’t always talk about is how we feel in our work. That’s really important, and we saw that powerfully in our workshop with Dr. Sutterlict bringing his grandchild and making sure his grandchild felt loved, welcomed, and cared for in that setting. It’s a great reminder that it’s possible in any setting, in any project. We can always strive for love and care, tending to how we’re feeling, and how the other folks are feeling around us. That’s an important part of our work.
 
Angel Villalobos:
As you were answering those questions, I felt like you were in my head. When our thoughts are fractured and in several different places, any mistake, barrier, or challenge is heightened and appears worse. You get stuck in this spiral or cycle of thinking and do things you maybe wouldn’t otherwise. It builds until something big happens, or you take a moment to reflect and assess. In the workshop, you could visibly see folks relax as Dr. Sutterlict began to share the story. We often need that moment of connection, reflection, or relaxation to help us get back to our baseline, so we can focus on the conversation and its meaning. The workshop felt like a fantastic reminder of how life works— we might miss out on things like spending time with family because we’re focused on career goals but when we’re present in the moment, there’s joy and peace. Is that something you experience in your own space?
 
Dr. Michelle Jacob:
I love how you strongly articulated that — that’s the work, the objective, the learning outcome. So, it’s about the work, self-care, it’s also about dreaming of possibilities all at once. To me that’s the best evaluation. It’s not just sitting there with these agreed upon questions that we wrote eighteen months ago; it’s about the relationships, shared understanding, and our collective dreams of what we want for our people. Are we moving toward those dreams and are we enjoying it along the way?
 
Angel Villalobos:
It’s easy to get consumed by busyness. I’ve been reading about abundance, what it means to work from a space of abundance instead of limitation. We are taught we can become anything we want, and that may work for some people, but that mindset can turn into striving to be the best for your family or community — and that can cloud your thoughts, and you get lost in what you’re trying to accomplish. I feel myself having to navigate those spaces, and at times, I lose the human components of the work. When I have conversations with you and others in the ETB space it reminds me to take a deep breath. Yes, we all breathe every day as part of a basic thing we do but I forget to actually take a deep breath and center myself. Do you have any insights on how to avoid feeling overwhelmed? It’s a skill, like muscle that I have to keep working on, like meditation and breathing exercises.
 
Dr. Michelle Jacob:
I think keeping trust and love at the center of our work can do that. The conditions of our work can change, and schedules can get wonky, but it’s still going to always be okay if we have that strong sense of trust and love in our work. A part of that is understanding the strengths all around us and that’s something our Yakama Elders remind us of—the importance of going outside and connecting with the places that have so much power. You know, Elders never say “spend another hour in front of your computer, that’s how you’re really going to be your best.” I was talking with an Elder about a student who is having a challenging time finishing their dissertation, I asked the Elder for advice and the Elder said “Tell the student to go outside, go down by the river. Just look around, pay attention, maybe they’ll see a deer.” That was the advice for how to finish a dissertation. It is a reminder to breathe. Remember there’s a whole powerful world all around you and if we try to do everything as individuals, you can do okay, but if you’re grounded and have that sense of love, trust, and care of this huge network of strong loving beings all around, you can do way more. You can see more possibilities. I love those teachings.
 

Remember there’s a whole powerful world all around you and if we try to do everything as individuals, you can do okay, but if you’re grounded and have that sense of love, trust, and care of this huge network of strong loving beings all around, you can do way more.

Angel Villalobos:
I love how simple and impactful the teachings are. You can tell they have been crafted, refined, and have grown through time. They remind us to reflect. How can you value you? How can you see the beauty of everything that’s around you if your life is so controlled? Just a lot of self-reflection within those teachings. 

Cachet Evans:
I struggle with the need to constantly fill my time. I was taught that any free or idle time could be used to be productive or something important. I wasn’t taught to take time for self-care and just breathe, which is very important. At the beginning of the year as a resolution, I wanted to practice giving myself grace and give others grace. The story shared with us at the CRIE workshop was a nice reminder of that resolution and even the teachings you have shared today — to approach myself and others with grace because life can be hard, and we will make mistakes, but they don’t determine our value.

Angel Villalobos:
I think the whole world is in this state— No matter what we do, the world will continue to spin. Do you have any advice to prevent getting lost, or can you share what you do in those moments when you realize you’re not following the teachings?
 
Dr. Michelle Jacob:
I think it’s important to honor our strengths. If you use your calendar to set goals or priorities, good those are awesome strengths! So, calendar some journaling, reflection time, or a 55-minute walk outside. Calendar some time to spend with people you feel bad about not reconnecting with. Use your strengths to make those powerful shifts so you can have the life you really want and do the work you really want to do. We often talk about how we can work differently in better ways and that’s good, but work is only a small part, hopefully a third or less, of our lives. So, we want to work on having a fabulous life by understanding that work, ideally, will fit with ease into our full and fabulous lives and if it’s not, then all the more reason we need space to reflect and get clarity on the priorities that matter most to us, to be around folks who help you feel how you want to feel, to notice this project or these folks inspire and enrich me but these ones maybe not so much. That’s great learning. When you make decisions in the future keep moving more and more towards the spaces that fill your heart. That is what is most important.